Curse

Master Mxyzptlk · Oct 05, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

They way I see it is this: There was an original intent to not have grind, because the original intent was that the game was mostly for pvp. You would play pve for unlocks and when your guild wasn't on, the rest of the time you'd pvp.As I remember, Factions was intended to be a PVP expansion, with a new pve campaign tacked on (hence why it was so short).

They put in things like elite armor to allow for major PvE players to distinguish themselves and have goals to work for. Of course you're going to want these things to require work (though not necessarily grind). Since the stats were the same, it didn't matter to the casual player, who was only really put out because maybe his armor didn't look as cool. It didn't affect his game play.

Titles worked much the same way. Titles that get you armor or pets aren't a problem, since those are entirely cosmetic. If I recall correctly, greens were originally put in for casual players, so they could get cheap max stat weapons without having to drop the money on golds (this was pre-factions).

Where ArenaNet went wrong (in my opinion):

Wisdom and Treasure hunter titles were the begining of the problems. My guess is that the extreme players were not satisfied with looking cooler than other people, they wanted to be better than them too, annoyed that someone who only played a few hours a week could be as powerful as someone who played a few hours a day (the original intent of the game) so Arena net added in titles that affected game play, like giving you a chance to retain your item after salvaging.

This wasn't a big deal at first, since originally you lost it no matter what, so people without this title weren't losing anything. Then came lock picks, and more titles: affecting game play. Now the obsessive people could salvage without losing items and open chests without losing keys. Again, not soo big a deal since the casual gamer isn't losing anything, he's just not getting the powers given to those who can afford to spend much more time than he can.

Then came skills, which is the biggest problem for me. These skills require grind, and in the case of the luxon kurzick skills, quite a lot. Lots of people fight back saying these are optional, but they are not. I'm not going to say that the casual gamer has to choose them, because thats not a very strong argument. I'm going to say that he really can't choose them:

Most of the PvE only skills are pretty weak at low ranks, and to be useful they must be ground. A casual gamer doesn't need these skills to win, that is true. However, he basically cannot use these skills because he doesn't have the time to grind to make them worth using, at low levels, that spot is best spent on a skill linked to an attribute that he can raise. Suddenly the powers given to the extreme gamers but not the casual gamer are pretty large.

Side note: this is especially frustrating to mesmers who were promised a major upgrade. Gaile herself has said that the major upgrade to make mesmers pve-useful were the pve-only skills. This means that for mesmers, those pve only skills are a lot less optional to grind, and for casual gamers who cannot grind, mesmers become a class they might as well not play.

I'm not asking that everyone get everything. I love the panda-pet, but I can live without having one. I know I'm never going to get FoW armor, but my nice marhan's armor looks good to me. But stop making titles affect game play.

I don't want to have to grind my free time away to be as powerful as I could be, and I'm sick of being part of the weaker-caste of gamers because I have a job. If I wanted that, I'd go play WoW. Guildwars was supposed to be the game where time played did not equal power.

draxynnic · Oct 05, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Mxyzptlk

Side note: this is especially frustrating to mesmers who were promised a major upgrade. Gaile herself has said that the major upgrade to make mesmers pve-useful were the pve-only skills. This means that for mesmers, those pve only skills are a lot less optional to grind, and for casual gamers who cannot grind, mesmers become a class they might as well not play.

Half of the Asura skills look like they were originally intended for Mesmers. Pain Inverter (also overlaps with SS and SV, but feels more Mesmery), Mental Block, Mindbender, Smooth Criminal, and to a lesser extent Technobabble all look like Mesmer effects.

I don't think I've used either of the Mesmer-specific PvE skills yet, although I probably really should try working CoP into a build sometime.

freekedoutfish · Oct 05, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferret

As a great example of grind, i offer the Rainbow Pheonix. I mean, 10 maxed titles to get it...oh boy.

You have to slightly presume that once you have done all 3 campaigns (assuming you have played all 3), you could have close to 10 max titles.

Concidering protector is very easy to get and presumable most people aim for that, it gets you 3 max there.

Gaurdian is easy too once you find pugs and I dont see why people would dislike playing the game again on a harder setting. People dont seem to mind playing FPS in harder settings. That gets you 4 max titles with them all.

Then elite skill hunting is very, very easy to get and funds itself as you go! Thats another easy 4 max titles.

Exploration isnt easy, but its doable as you play the game. That gets you another 4 max titles.

End story - getting 10 max titles by the time you reach GWEN shouldnt be unreasonable. GWEN is to reward long running players after all. Plus all those titles I mentioned are achievable as you play. The protector and guardian ones are a given, because you get them for doing the storylines. The elite skill hunting can very easily be done as you play along, and exploration too.

I agree grind exists, but items like the rainbow pheonix arent necessities.

You have to agree that most of the achievable items which are gainable through grinding, arent important or critical. You can get max armor for 1.5k and from collectors. You can get max weapons from crafters and collectors. You can tame countless other pets and max them out. We already have a huge selection of normal and elite skills before GWEN; alot of which are very similar to the pve only ones.

Armor, weapons, skills, pets etc, etc, etc that we achieve from grind in GWs arent necessities. They are athetic nice-ities. Things to show off and collect and perhaps use to make the game a bit more interesting.

The pve only skills for example arent critical. They only exist to spice it up if need be!

People dislike the grind because they want the nice shiney armor and weapons and pets and skills, to look and feel good..... without making the effort. Then they try to place more important on these objects to justify the winging.

Master Mxyzptlk · Oct 05, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I'm going to make a quick note (much shorter than my last one) towards the people who say title skills are the same as title armor, just as optional:

This is completely untrue.

I agree with you on armor, since the game play is exactly the same with elite armor and non elite armor, but if you're going to say pve skills are non-essential, thats a weak argument. ALL skills are non essential. Theres no difference between a Pve Skill and a normal skill (yes, the skills are different, I'm talking in principle). You might as well say necromancers are non-essential. The only difference between pve skills and normal skills is that anyone can use normal skills to their fullest potential, where-as only a certain caste of player (those who can spend the time grinding to make pve skills worth bringing) can use pve skills.

Stop saying pve-only skills are non-essential, its a weak argument. Yes its true, they are non-essential, but so is every other skill/profession. Imagine if you needed to be rank legendary guardian of cantha to unlock ritualists.

Mordakai · Oct 05, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Mxyzptlk

I'm going to make a quick note (much shorter than my last one) towards the people who say title skills are the same as title armor, just as optional:

This is completely untrue.

While it's true that Title Skills are certainly not the same as armor (after all, FoW armor is the same as 1k armor); I don't think it's fair to compare the grind to get them.

For one thing, you don't need to be max level for Title Skills to be useful. Many are useful at level 1. For another thing, you can only have 3 PvE only skills on your build. So, just like not having every Elite skill is necessary, you can just get the ones you want...

Now, where this breaks down is the Factions PvE Luxon/Kurzick skills. Those I do see as a problem, because it's hard to get just level 1. And they are incredibly powered to boot. Who doesn't want a skill that gives +100 armor?!?

KiyaKoreena · Oct 05, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

It sounds to me a lot like the people complaining about grind and how things are ruined have an overly large sense of self entitlement. Items were put in as rewards and incentives to continue playing the game after you beat the campaign. It has been pointed out dozens of times already that new armors, fancy weapons, and special skills are not needed to play. Having a higher rank and boosting a skill a bit is not game breaking and relying on them to do so is a crutch for not bothering to utalize all the other means available to you. People who have played through once or twice and are now whining that they shouldnt have to play again to get items on their new characters need to take a moment and actually notice how unreasonable that is. How many games let you automatically have all armors, weapons, and stats available from the get-go and jump to the farthest points when you start a new savegame? A new character is a new game and YES you have to start over. Items that will be unlocked through HoM are a REWARD for actually putting the effort and time into it. It will not be something gamebreaking in GW2. You do not need the reward you just want it so stop whining that they wont give it to you when you are too lazy to earn it. (And it is lazy. I have ONE character that I bother going for titles on. Whatever that earns me in GW2 will be a great bonus. My other 8 characters are for FUN. They play just fine without maxxed titles. ) All this 'gimme gimme gimme now now now' has gone past the annoying stage.

ksalanpang · Oct 05, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

For PvE standpoint Tomb, UW, FOW, SF, Urgoz, Deep are the only supreme pve locations with all human(I'm not talking about solo). I don't count The rest are just "you go play with heroes and henchies" maps. Heroes made everyone lazy. There's no motivation or even trust on the other players in PvE, unless it's your guildies/friends. You're right about the anti-social, not talkative thing in game.

You're right about the grinding thing. It's nonsense...get to r5 for a set of armor that's reskin. It's not that encouraging.

I'm still playing GW is not because I got no choice. It's because I like the excitement of it in PvP. All the customizations, freedom you get in game. I really like fantacy game, it allows players to play multiple professions.

I'm just afraid the longer/more we expect from GW2. The more players will go. That's just a fact. There's no way for anyone to play a game that has no new additions, contents for another year or two.

Sorry to say, but Anet had made a bad decision by not releasing new contents to the current GW1.

Not sure if anyone of you notice. PVP in GW is more like a sport. A lot of us enjoy it. It shouldn't be taken away. Anet needs to pay more attention in why veteran pvpers left. I don't mean to fix it. But you've to know why they go. Pleasing new players isn't the solution.

GL

TabascoSauce · Oct 06, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiyaKoreena

It sounds to me a lot like the people complaining about grind and how things are ruined have an overly large sense of self entitlement.

That is what we are saying about you.

The way the game was - "grind rewarded by vanity armors" - was exactly in line with the original premise of the game. Skill > Time. Level 20 max. There was no significant power curve to be had by grinding away.

But players who felt like you, they evidently were not satisfied with that. I think each and every one of you who advocate for "grind rewarding toon power" is merely part of an attempt to make Guild Wars from the game it was into an achievement engine so that you can substitute real-world achievements for in-game virtual achievements.

Think about it. Why would you want powers that are outside of the 200-point attribute balancing mechanic, whose potency is directly tied to a repetitive task that can be accomplished by a macro?

Do you blame us for seeing your side in a very negative light?

There are other games more suited for this - go see any other MMO. They are all level-based and have as much grind as you could ask for. Why steer Guild Wars to compete with them?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Lord Sojar · Oct 06, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

This is already in the game. It's called the Hero's Handbook and the Master Dungeon Guide.

You know..this thread started out being a complaint against the grinding in GWEN, then Rahja said the only thing that bothered him was how ANet "promised" 40 armor sets and he wasn't able to immediately try them all on. Now it's back to grinding.

<SNIP>

Que Kevin Spacey from Superman Returns....

"WROOOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG!!!!!!"

This thread wasn't about either of those topics. This thread is about the game's evolution of gameplay and the original vision that ANET started with vs what we see today.

For more information, please reread the first post on the first page until your eyes bleed. Thanks.

EPO Bot · Oct 06, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I kinda like the grind, because you know that someone with GWEN armor didn't just buy it with Ebay gold (obsidian anyone?). It took a bit of gameplay too.

KiyaKoreena · Oct 06, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

That is what we are saying about you.

The way the game was - "grind rewarded by vanity armors" - was exactly in line with the original premise of the game. Skill > Time. Level 20 max. There was no significant power curve to be had by grinding away.

But players who felt like you, they evidently were not satisfied with that. I think each and every one of you who advocate for "grind rewarding toon power" is merely part of an attempt to make Guild Wars from the game it was into an achievement engine so that you can substitute real-world achievements for in-game virtual achievements.

Think about it. Why would you want powers that are outside of the 200-point attribute balancing mechanic, whose potency is directly tied to a repetitive task that can be accomplished by a macro?

Do you blame us for seeing your side in a very negative light?

There are other games more suited for this - go see any other MMO. They are all level-based and have as much grind as you could ask for. Why steer Guild Wars to compete with them?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I would appreciate you not making assuptions about me and what I want(ed) because you are quite far off base there. And there is still no significant advantage to maxxing titles. Even if you have maxxed Lucky and chest titles your lockpicks will still break. A person with maxxed LB that plays stupidly will still die quicker then someone with level one who plays well. It still comes down to skill (and luck sometimes) whether you want to admit that or not.

Jongo River · Oct 06, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Assuming that what I keep reading about Anet thinking we'd all be into PvP is true, I wonder if the big problem is actually that they can't get out of the mindset that not all of their players are competitive. Sure I want new armours and weapons, but I ain't willing to jump through hoops (for days on end), because it's only about having a change and keeping me interested, not about keeping up with the Freakeses.

TabascoSauce · Oct 06, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiyaKoreena

significant advantage

Okay, I gotta ask, how can +100 armor party wide be considered not significant.

Oh, I think it is significant.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Lonesamurai · Oct 06, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Okay, I gotta ask, how can +100 armor party wide be considered not significant.

Oh, I think it is significant.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Because its PvE only, so no advantage ingame

Otherwise known as - PvE Easy Mode

capitalist · Oct 06, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Rahja, nice post(s). I assume you were drunk when you wrote them - then again, that is how you roll.

I bought the expansion with some hopes of GW becoming interesting again. It didn't. Same with NF.

Maybe the fact is that I can't overcome my nostalgia and I just want Prophecies back, along with the thrill of running Droks or taking a customer through the game, fighting through the Fire Islands, or henching THK. And I think the reason why those memories resonate is that they required some degree of skill.

So the trip down memory lane aside, Rahja was probably drunk when he started the thread, which is cool (he is a better player when he is drunk).

PureEvilYak · Oct 07, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

You know the way to solve most of the problems highlighted in the first post? Make guild wars pay per month. Now, let me highlight that I do not want this to happen. It would be exactly what I don't want to happen, to be clear. But we have to pay for this.

A monthly payment weeds out a lot of the bad players. The 11 year olds (I assume that nearly all 11 year olds are immature and have no common sense. Being only 16, I can look back and agree that I went through this stage. If you are 11 and actually tolerable, sorry.) would be removed by the fact that they couldn't pay the fee on pocket money. The antisocial players would ditch the pay per month game and play another single player game.

As for the lack of conversation in GW all chat, well, thats because the game is simply too big, and people play multiple accounts (well, not all do. Unless I'm in PvE, you'll always see me on Vivi Malvagio. But many people do.) meaning they are unlikely to meet again. I mean, when was the last time you found someone you'd played with ages ago and had a happy re-union? Its happened to me once in 26 months. The game is too big to have a close-knit online community. I'll chat in my alliance, but other than that, you're never likely to see the same person twice.

To solve this problem in a less drastic way, I'm hoping GW2 has a bigger game, with a bigger growth curve. While I was opposed to a level 100 cap at first, I see that you will get a lot of players growing at similar speeds, so will have chance after chance to bump into each other as they progress through the game. I also hope that there will be expansions, not stand alone chapters... the accelerated growth of factions and nightfall ruined things.

As a ray of hope, not everyone if this game is antisocial. Look at Gi Shin Toi Dan, the storyteller. I must admit that I wish the whole community of the game was like him... willing to please some newbs with a story (even those newbs who are 26 month veterans

) even when he'll often meet idiots scoffing at "storytime", flaming him and calling him a baby. Not all of us are horrible. Keep the faith.

Clone · Oct 07, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiyaKoreena

And there is still no significant advantage to maxxing titles.

I asked a question before about Ursan blessing. It compared a max norn and an average player who didn't grind, but had beat the game. The long and the short of it was, if the ability to do an additional 50 damage every 3 seconds, as well as having +80 hp and +8 armor isn't a significant advantage.... what would be a significant advantage?

I'll extend this to Volfen blessing as well. Compare a R5 norn to a R10 norn. Volfen is fairly easy to maintain while in battle. However, the R10 has +4 health regen, the R5 has only +2. If an additional 2 pips of health regen for the duration of a battle isn't an advantage... what would be a significant advantage?

These are not rhetorical questions. And while I clearly think that the advantages as they are now are significant, I don't want to misconstrue this as some sort of challenge. I would just like to get a better understanding of how you would define advantages. So, please answer: If additional health regen, armor, and damage dealing ability isn't an advantage, what is?

samifly · Oct 07, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

PvE skills are a significant advantage in Hard Mode, DoA, etc... theres no way you can spin it to say they aren't. You can say you don't really need them, but you dont really "need" any more than 8 skills either.

Theus · Oct 07, 2007, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifly

PvE skills are a significant advantage in Hard Mode, DoA, etc... theres no way you can spin it to say they aren't. You can say you don't really need them, but you dont really "need" any more than 8 skills either.

Too bad chances are Hardmode isn't going to be hard.At all.

With consumables and PvE skills,the onlychance they could make it truly hard mode is make it ludicrous,to the point that it absolutely requires the highest level's of PvE skills,which in turn will alienate players,or can simply remove the use of Consumables and PvE skills causing an uproar over the fact that players leveled up the skills for absolutely no reason.

It's pretty much a lose-lose situation for Anet.

It's either
A. A Hardmode that isn't Hard because of Consumables and PvE skills.
B.A Hardmode that is so hard that it requires a player to grind the highest ranks of a title to use the PvE skills required to beat such challenges.

In other words,chances are,Hardmode's going to be terrible.

Lonesamurai · Oct 07, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifly

PvE skills are a significant advantage in Hard Mode, DoA, etc... theres no way you can spin it to say they aren't. You can say you don't really need them, but you dont really "need" any more than 8 skills either.

Thats fine by me, doesn't bother me in the slightest...

Now if they gave an advantage in Pvp, then i'd have issue, but as they don't, I'm not bothered